I’m a definite No voter in the upcoming referendum so it’s interesting to consider what ‘our’ side is up against.
With slight exaggeration – All major Irish political parties, all of Europe, the UN and the Vatican.
Ok, all the governments of Europe, the people weren’t actually asked for their opinion. I know Kofi Annan is no longer Secretary General of the UN but he is generally seen as a UN man. And I’m sure the Pope/Vatican is agreement with the Irish bishops who have effectively urged a Yes vote.
Wouldn’t it be great to give the lot of them the two fingers?
Hello:)
Although ‘the bishops’ are ‘urging’ a yes vote, it is completely evident that Catholic spin merchants are in hyper mode all over the Irish media promoting a no; I find it incredible to think that anyone may not see this!
Whatever one may feel about a more federal Europe, and I personally am in favour of this, there can be no doubt that the Catholic church does not want the rights legislation that this would inevitably bring. For example; two of my children have been rejected from primary and secondary schools because I have insisted on their rights not to be indoctrinated by a discredited and corrupt organization in the way I was and the vast majority of children in Ireland continue to be. In an Ireland as part of a more federal Europe my children would, to put it simply, have had a far greater chance and much more encouragement to actualize. His excellence would rather centers of Catholicism than centers of excellence.
I keep an open mind on things spiritual, but in my experience any honest analysis shows the Catholic church as a self serving mafia; as connected to any God there may be as the stones in he fields.
As a democrat, if there ever was a vote on whether or not to allow the Catholic church continue as it is in Ireland I would oppose the motion as vociferously as possible. I would however accept the will of the majority in a fair and free referendum. Did you ever hear a bishop utter those words?
Gearoid Dullaghan
Anthony, I haven’t read anything else on this blog of your reasons for voting no but surely the one you give here is childish.
oh yes there was …
ferdia2010 May 16th, 2008 at 12:14 am
John you might consider that the government lost the first “Nice” referendum and didn’t win the second one by a landslide either should all these people about .5 million be consider “barmy” belonging to the lunatic fringe or whatever just because they don’t agree with you. They may think you are “barmy” they might be right.
If this Lisbon treaty is so good why are they so afraid of any debate ?
Also as regards the main political parties and their supporters how many of them really know what they are voting for ? most only vote that way because their parents did or they
have a job in the civil service or because they are on television alot.
Also as regards the EU/EEC what makes this such a good thing for Ireland ?
They gave away the Irish fishing industry just to get in ( that was a industry worth £6-7 billion year what is it worth now ?). I remember the 80’s as being the worst decade with lots of factories shutting down and mass unemployment/Emigration where did all these jobs go ?
We would lived and prospered without Europe and maybe we still would ….
Tongue in cheek, Haymoon, tongue in cheek
Ferdia said: We would lived and prospered without Europe and maybe we still would ….
Ferdia; countries with far greater standards in all they do, with far greater wealth and infinitely more opportunity to offer their citizens became a part of the EU. Ireland was an oppressive backwater with nothing but potential; a potential which was systematically and strategically limited by the miserable self interested powers that were (and to some extent still are).
We have enjoyed the tonnes of hard cash European tax payers have shoved our way to help us off our knees and are now net contributors. We have benefited tremendously from the rights legislation which would not have happened here until there were colonies on Mars (or later). Our EU based trade associations have ended forced emigration; young people can travel abroad now without carrying a shovel etc. etc. etc.
Switzerland and Norway were and are completely different countries from Ireland economically and socially. They are now associated with the EU in ways Ireland wouldn’t have had the wherewithal or weight to be if we tried to go it alone.
With all due respect (and I have no desire to insult), but people who express the view you have should get real. There is still a lot of unrealized potential and much to be done to raise standards in Ireland to those common in the developed world. We absolutely NEED the support of the EU to make Ireland the place our children deserve it to be. It might have been different if from the beginning of the ROI we had a truly republican constitution and worked towards an Ireland of enfranchised citizens (instead of repressed subjects of the pope). But we can’t change history.
I dream of a free Ireland, but in a shrinking world that means a well connected and well integrated Ireland…. where the bishops can kiss OUR rings;)
Gearoid Dullaghan
As far as i know Norway was a poor country till they found Oil ! Iceland doesn’t have that either and they still managed so could we. We didn’t get that much from the EU they took as much as they gave. The real leg up was from America not from europe. They couldn’t care less about Ireland (the EU) sign up to Lisbon and you can’t say no in the future or you will have to leave for sure. I still think that we would live without Europe and
prosper.
Hello Ferdia,
We are the EU. Like the other 26 countries, we have ceded soverignty in order to buy influence on a wider stage. Irish people in the Commission, European Parliament and the various Councils of Ministers negotiated the Lisbon treaty. They did a damn good job of making sure the smaller countries got more of a say than weight of numbers alone might have afforded us.
I believe the US would be less interested in Ireland were we not an economic and social gateway to the EU, although the very fact we have become successful and are now demanding better pay undermines that somewhat I guess.
Your views are shared by many across the EU though. Many people in the formerly Communist countries hanker back to days when all the basics were provided for you, before the competitive nature of ‘western’ life took hold. Even at the heart of the EU in France for example there are many who would rather go it alone.
It is perhaps unfortunate that there wasn’t a EU wide referendum so that it could be demonstrated (or not) that a majority in all member states were keen to integrate further. Then the gradual loss of a veto for individual members would become moot.
Let us just hope that whatever does transpire is in fact the will of the majority.
Gearoid Dullaghan
Well Gearoid,
You are obviously a believer in this Europe idea and generally I respect your point of view but i don’t believe in Europe and don’t believe they it will ever act in the interests of Ireland or other smaller countries. There has been little or no debate on the Lisbon treaty it is not been discussed properly
what are all these amendments about ?
What does the solitary pact involve ? (Looks like the league of the three emperors to me)
People are being asked to vote on this treaty without knowing what it entails and could quite possibly be told that ignorance is no defence later.
I wonder if the new constitution contains anything on blog discussion censorship ?
Peader, what is it you believe might or might not be censored from this blog?
Gearoid
Ferdia, I had to look up what you meant by the league of the three emperors. I see what you mean and how one might fear that an increasingly powerful Europe might lead to wars in the interest of the powerful; I guess we just have to look at the way the US has behaved in recent times. The one thing that struck me though is that the alliance you mentioned was ultra conservative and opposed to the liberalism of France and ‘the west’. In a way, the US today is like the three emperors. A consolidated liberal EU might be the opposing counterbalance which can keep it in check, provided of course the EU remains liberal, and this is why a good constitution might be of great importance.
Just weeks after Kosovo broke from Serbia we had the Eurovision song contest held in Serbia. Many believe it is the promise of eventually joining the EU which allowed pro western and anti war politicians to prevail in elections. This for me is what the EU might be best at and as I understand it, was what Monet and Schumann envisaged in the first place.
Perhaps our views overlap more than we realize; but your perspective is a tad pessimistic and mine perhaps overly optimistic?
Gearoid